Here's the question that I received:

Situation: I have a strong prospect that is building a 3+ million dollar home, 13,500 sq. ft (4 stories) and he is leaning towards installing an X-10 system vs. Lutron Homeworks. Everything in this place is high end...9 fireplaces, etc. I expect to be installing the distributed audio system with my plan to pitch the Crestron system with the CT-1000 screens.

The feedback from the colleagues I have met in the industry explicitly tell me to stay clear from X-10 unless I want to be called in the middle of the night on a regular basis. My internet research revealed that when comparing the systems ... both have diverse functionality ... but when considering the esthetics, personally, a Crestron/Lutron combination is more appealing.

What complicates the issues is that the home owner's business partner just installed an X-10 system for a fraction of what a Lutron/Crestron system would cost and all the owner is hearing is the dollar difference.

Therefore, I would appreciate your candid opinion on which lighting (automation) system a home of this size and investment should be configured with and please state your argument why or why not.

Thanks for taking the time, Ed Trauth ( etrauthhts@aol.com )

From: "Larry Loucks" Larry.Loucks@attglobal.net

Bob,

I have an X-10 system in my new 6000 sq ft heat/ac, 8500 sq ft under cover, 1 1/2 story home with an unattached cabana. This home is not near as big as the one you mention but still good size. The home has romex cable runs of well over 100' and 175' to the cabana.

I am not a professional installer or anything like that but I have used X10 successfully in three homes and I believe there are several keys to X10 success:

1) The first is to have a well designed high voltage system network to run X10 on. I have a 400 amp service supplied by two 200 amp 220v copper feeds (the electricians have a unique name for these copper wires that I won't repeat here) running into three breaker panels. The feeds are tied together at the meter box, about 75' from the panels and the meter box is fed from the transformer across the street, about 50' from the meter box.

The panels are all co-located and are divided such that the 220v and other 110v loads that I don't want to control, like stoves, refrigerators, HVAC units, etc., are on one of the feeds and the loads I do want to control on the other. Each feed has a Leviton Whole House suppresser and the "controlled" feed is wired for a Leviton coupler/repeator which I have not yet installed because I don't want to cover up any problems. I have good X10 signal throughout the house across both legs of the feed I want to control. I will install the coupler repeater when I am satisfied I have found the major noise makers and signal suckers.

There are no remote sub panels in the main house. The cabana and the outside lighting/boat dock are the only remote sub panels and are fed from the main panels.

The switch boxes all have neutrals, the n-way switch travelers were all designed to work correctly with X10 switches as well as regular switches, care was taken with the running of the romex, etc.

There are in-wall controllers located at every major switch location in the house. A typical box would contain 1, 2 or 3 X10 or normal switches and one X10 in-wall controller. The idea is to have flexibility at each location, hit the X10 switch to turn on the light or hit the controller to light a path, set a scene, etc.

2) The second is to use high quality switches. I have used X10, Leviton, Switch Linc and PCS. X10 does not make a high quality decora switch and Switch Linc does not work with a repeater. The Leviton and PCS switches both work but the PCS switches win hands down for both feel and function. I use Leviton and Switch Linc in-wall controllers. I don't have much experience with the Switch Linc controllers but they seem to work and I like their look and IR capabilities.

3) The third is to have a pocket full of plug in noise filters and an X10 signal meter. I just automatically put the noise filters on all computers and test all tv's and audio equipment. This is something that can cause problems after the X10 system is working and a new piece of equipment is added to the network. It does require that home owners have some idea of these types of issues.

4) The fourth is to use a reliable controller. Lots of choices here depending on how much other stuff you want to integrate, like the audio and video systems, etc.

I have friends who have large Lutron (not Radio Ra) and LightTouch systems that work very well and it seems to me the rest of design is pretty much common among all of the systems. For example, figuring out the scenes, integrating the environment, camera, audio, video and security systems, etc. I have a DSC security system with the X10 interface to allow "easy" integration into the lighting system. I just do simple things like turn on the light when you open the door to disarm the system, turn it off after you arm and leave the house, etc.

There are plus and minuses between X10 and the other systems like cost, flexibility, reliability and simplicity. I chose X10 again for my new home, not because of cost but because it works in a way that is familiar to people, a switch still looks and works like a switch and it offers the ability to easily and incrementally grow and integrate the system. I expect that the cost, when you factor in the high voltage considerations and the high quality swicthes, are not that much different.

I will add that my friends both program their Lutron and LightTouch systems themselves and so they also enjoy the ability to incrementally grow and change the system. They simply over kill the base system by providing control for every light and then program the system over time to accommodate their uses.

Larry

From: "Don Marquardt" kyham@worldnet.att.net

I would have to say that ANYONE that is going to spend that much for a house and of that size would be CRAZY TO USE X10. Just not that reliable.

As you know, I have an extensive X10 installation in my home but no where near the cost for either the house or equipment. It works but the dependability and reliability is not 100% and they would not be happy with it after all the money spent for the house itself.

I would have to agree that they SHOULD NOT PINCH PENNIES ON THE HOME!!!!!! They will be VERY disappointed with the results later.

X10 works but is NOT that high in quality.

Don

"Tony Golden" MrGolden@swbell.net

This is truly amazing...

> ---------Question to HomeToys ---------------------------
> Situation:  I have a strong prospect that is building a 3+
> million dollar home, 13,500 sq. ft (4 stories) and he is leaning towards
> installing an X-10 system vs. Lutron Homeworks.  Everything in this place
is
> high end...9 fireplaces, etc.

If "everything in this place is high end", why cut corners now?

> I expect to be installing the distributed
> audio system with my plan to pitch the Crestron system with the CT-1000
> screens.

That's an excellent choice, and for many more reasons than just the audio
system...

> The feedback from the colleagues I have met in the industry
> explicitly tell me to stay clear from X-10 unless I want to be called in
the
> middle of the night on a regular basis.

Well, that's not totally accurate, but the Lutron is a far superior system,
for a number of reasons.

> My internet research revealed that
> when comparing  the systems the both have diverse functionality but when
> considering the aesthetics, personally, a Crestron/Lutron combination is
> more appealing.

And also much more reliable.

> What complicates the issues is that the home owner's
> business partner just installed an X-10 system for a fraction of what a
> Lutron/Crestron system would cost and all the owner is hearing is the
dollar
> difference.

Did the business partner's house also have "9 fireplaces"?

It annoys me, when customers brag about how much they spent, on one hand,
then whine about something "costing too much" on the other.

True story -- I once had a client spend $5,000 to have a "custom" sink (not
for the Master Bath, but one in the hallway, no less) shipped over from
Europe, and the very next day, reamed the electricians because the
receptacles they were using cost $1.50 more than others he'd seen.

This is an instance, when you say to the customer, "Well, if price is more
important to you than quality, maybe you should build a less expensive
house".  I've said this to potential clients before, and it immediately
changes their outlook -- usually for the better :-)

> Therefore, I would appreciate your candid opinion on which
> lighting (automation) system a home of this size and investment should be
> configured with and please state your argument why or why not.

First of all -- anyone "authorized" to sell Crestron or Lutron should
already know the difference, and if not, the answers are readily available
from either manufacturer's sales rep.

Secondly, the comparison between PLC and hard-wired lighting systems has
been covered in this newsgroup countless times.  A Deja/Google search should
return more than enough information on which to base your decision.

Tony Golden

Jim Fouch JimFouch@WriteMe.Com

Every light in my house plus the garage door, the gas fireplace, and the
audio/video equipment is controlled by X-10 and although I knew its
limitations before I started I still get a tad frustrated at times.

I expect that what this home owner saves by using X-10 instead of a much
better hard wired system, he will be happy to spend with a lawyer when he
discovers it does not work first time every time.

With all due respect, I think the question of using X-10 instead of a system
in keeping with a $3,000,000 is rather silly.

Cheers, Jim.